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PegyJ |
#241 | |||
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I couldn't agree more - oh how I wish I would have recorded my meeting with Bishop Jackels - after the meeting I called our attorney and told him some of
the things Bishop Jackels said, - our attorney's response was 'You're joking right?' He really thought I was joking because of some of the
things Bishop Jackels said were so outrageous, it didn't seem conceivable that a 'man of God' would say such things. Keep in mind our attorney had
been working clergy abuse cases for 15 yrs plus so he had dealt with these guys and had never heard of some of the things Jackels said to us. Pope Benedict
taught his protegee well - minimize, minimize and play the consensual game. Absolutely clueless when it came to damage control.
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rice55 |
#242 | |||
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And when you buy the digital recorder, make sure it is the type that you can download on to your laptop and email it to anyone at anytime, anywhere. You
don't think that they would do it to you? Thank again. It's just business.
Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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NEPTUNE |
#243 | |||
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Take a lawyer with you besides a secret tape recorder. Having a lawyer with you gives you some power because they are armed with a scorching indifference.
Having a lawyer with you says you mean business. You will get no accountability without a lawyer. They can feign kindness and concern, but they do not have
to do anything. Having a lawyer gives you backup because you are going into the lions den believe me.
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rice55 |
#244 | |||
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And I will add to what Neptune just said...READ THIS EVERYONE...today's date is March 13, 2009. Not Boston 2002. The diocese paid for my therapy until I
followed up with the last, third year statute. The diocesan lawyer, the LAY MEMBER who sits on the Diocesan Review Board, informed my lawyer that the diocese
had no intention on paying for my therapy past the last statute deadline. No notice was given to me. Infact, it was rather funny to the diocesan lawyer.
Marquette Diocese--- "We are sorry for the harm done,"..."It's just business." |
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rice55 |
Group Support | #245 | ||
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Group Support meets 4 to 6 p.m. at St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Marquette on Ridge Street THIS Friday. Two road trips, a visting speaker and the update
on Marquette General Hospital's assistance towards a facilitator for the group will be discussed. This is a PUBLIC meeting open to any and all. Closed
dates are planned during these meetings.
All are welcome. Reach out, stay safe. Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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LiberteBelle |
#246 | |||
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I took along my therapist (she has a Ph.D. in psychology) to my meetings with the Jesuit Provincial. Anyone who qualifies as an "expert witness" --
and that doesn't necessarily mean an attorney -- is as good to have along (possibly better) when meeting with bishops or provincials as a recording device.
Recordings can be challenged or declared "inadmissable" especially if done without the awareness of the people being recorded. However, an expert
witness such as therapist, can vouch for any statements made in the course of a meeting and render added expert opinion. My therapist (who was reared German
Lutheran) was as appalled as I was with the Provincial's comments. But unlike me she had the ability to address impacts to me, from an esteemed,
highly-credible and objective professional perspective. In short: I highly recommend that any survivor take a "second" along, when meeting with
church officials to discuss settlement terms, who is the equal of bishops or provincials, in terms of education and professional standing. It's worth the
hourly fee you may have to pay these people to be of support to you. Then add the costs of having them accompany you, to the settlement amount.
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rice55 |
#247 | |||
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Liberty, not all recordings are junk or inadmissable in a court of law. That is incorrect. It is still an obvious good choice of self-protection to have any
and all meetings recorded, period. Most of the time, victims/survivors are triggering so badly that recording the meetings will help to recall what was and was
not said.
Most of the time, they tell you to bring an advocate and then turn around and tell you to just have your lawyer call theirs. My husband called the office fr the bishop. The secretray called my husband back saying that theyy were trying to get him scheduled in and they would call back soon. The next call was the secretary relaying the bishop's own message. He wanted my husband to proceed in calling the diocesan lawyer. Does anyone wonder whay my husband just deosn't have the heart to go to Mass? Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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rice55 |
again... | #248 | ||
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February 22, 2009
Marquette City Police Department Dear Detective Snowaert, I ask you to verify is this information to see if it matches your records of employment and INS information provided to you by the Diocese of Marquette regarding Father Roy Joseph, M.S.T. Father Roy Joseph was dismissed from employment with the diocese in May of 2006 following a complaint of sexual misconduct, as you are aware. In May of 2006, Bishop Alexander Sample emailed me with information stating the name, ordination date and birth date of Father Roy Joseph. This was when Fr. Roy allegedly as reported to me by Bishop Sample fled to the State of Wisconsin. No last name of Fr. Roy Joseph was provided to me in Bishop's emails. The birth date that was provided to me by Bishop Sample was incorrect. [See attached emails received and sent from Bishop Sample in 2006, provided only to the police.] I wish to provide the correct information so that there is a semblance of truth regarding this matter. This information is: Father Roy Joseph, a.k.a, Mookenthottam Kurian Melukavmattam. Kurian's birth date is 9-26-66. Mookenthottam is his family name. Bishop Sample had provided me with the birth date as 2-10-66. This information is verifiable from diocesan records located in India. Kurian's information was located by me. If you have any information that would be beneficial to me in locating Kurian, I would appreciate your assistance. Respectfully, Kelly Mathews 289A County Rd 550 Marquette, MI 49855 906.362.2602 Cc Detective Steve Snowaert, Marquette City Police Department Detective Jeff Johnston, Michigan State Police Department Gary Walker, Marquette County Prosecuting Attorney Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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rice55 |
#249 | |||
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Cerucheruppil
Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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LiberteBelle |
#250 | |||
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Kelly,
I never asked the Provincial for permission to bring my therapist along. I wouldn't have gone without her. The Jesuit Provincial said he "felt sorry" for me, but he also didn't like the fact I wasn't respectful of him, his authority or his attempts to impose, Jesuit intellectual detachment on my agnostic, Mormon-bred sensibilities. (Actually, I ended up feeling as if -- and I still do! -- that I'm more of a real Christian than this Provincial is, but that's another subject) I wasn't suggesting survivors shouldn't take recording devices at all. But I do think having an attorney, therapist or even doctor along -- someone who is the professional equal of the bishop or provincial -- helps establish that the victim cannot be patronized or spoken-down to, without being accountable to the expert witness's, recollection and impression of circumstances. Also the "second" has the ability to remain an objective observer (and this is good) whereas the victim-survivor is usually unable to effectively negotiate in their favor. The emotions overpower ability to remain rationally -- and necessarily -- detached at those times when it's best to say nothing and simply take in information. I'm not surprised to learn that your husband is no longer interested in church. It is sad that so many primary and secondary victim-survivors like you and your husband have been robbed of your faith, right along with having been abused. I also know many other victims of rape and sadistic sexual abuse, at the hands of imported Catholic priests. At least one abusive priest I know of was deported as an "undesirable alien" and is not allowed to return to the USA. It's cases like yours that have caused me to look into not only trying to change my own state's professional conduct codes.to include "clergy," I am hoping to eventually persuade Immigration and Naturalization Services (INS) to tighten it's policies with churches that import priests. I think any priest from another country should be subjected to a rigorous Interpol / CIA / FBI background check, before he's allowed to serve other than in his home country. The priest who assaulted you was not acting on an isolated impulse. I'm sure he has a paper trail and the name changes are attempts to cover his tracks, rather than just for the purpose of giving new parishoners an easier way to refer to him. I also know, from having talked to several women victim-survivors, that many of these priests enter the priesthood in their country (and I've spoken with victims whose perps came from India, Mexico and the Phillipines) so they can receive university educations at the expense of the church and so they can immigrate to the west. In short: they're not so much interested in serving God and ministering to others as getting an all-expenses-paid way out of poverty and an easy working visa, covered by the Church.
Last Edited By: LiberteBelle 03/20/09 16:42:28.
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rice55 |
#251 | |||
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Not all dioceses are open for allowing victims to meet with their bishop with their therapists present. They do not recognize that it is normal for a victim to
choose a person that would be supportive of the victim? When I say supportive, I mean supportive of the trauma and reactions that a victim would have to a
bishop (priest) and why a victim would have such intense emotional and physical reactions in being in the same room with a priest. Like in this diocese, the
reaction to to protect the bishop rather than protecting the sanctity and spiritual openess for a victim to want to, to need to, or to even try to, meet with
their bishop for healing, is treated as a favor. I guess some dioceses are staffed with mature and responsible professionals and others are staffed with fear
based under-educated social workers and diocesan lawyers who get paid while creating a more fearfull outreach environment. When the circle that you rely on
stays small, so does the thinking.
Only imcompetant staff would inform a pastoral leader that by the dissallowment of a victim's advocate of their own choosing from entering a room with the bishop (priest), that it is somehow good decision making. The victim instead is AGAIN re-victimized and excluded, and is denied the much needed "safety"zone of support. What kind of a pastor denies a victim the chance at health and recovery through self-empowerment? How can this diocese, for example, state in their own writing that they wan't to make the process as safe as possible, when they have no sense of safety and professonal experience in this matter. Once again, ignorance runs rampant. I mean a really inexcusable and pitiful amount of denial has to be going on at all levels to even reject a victim from such a simple act of self preservation and safety. I would think that a bishop would welcome the victim's support person as a part of the pastoral arm and care; that of Christ. Pastoral care... Professional response and educated advice... Pastoral centered outreach... Fear based responses... Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855
Last Edited By: rice55 03/22/09 20:51:47.
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rice55 |
#252 | |||
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Wonderful group support meeting tonight. I thank you all for sharing in your efforts to be supportive and creative towards your recovery and self-care.
For those who keep checking in, I am still licking my wounds and will have my site back up soon. For those who are wondering what happened over the past few weeks in the "legal department" you will have to read between the lines [edit] of not being to say anything about it. For those whom have survived this process, you will know what that means. I laughed when my friend reminded me, "What Would Jesus Sign?" Legal speak of course. I don't recall who stated this but the quote goes something like, "...a document written in bad faith can be signed in bad faith." I wish to give a special thank you to Dr. Paul Ashton who has taken the time to comb through my notes (the very triggery and mentally ill ones) and write a clearly understandable article for VIRTUS. This was a follow-up to another article that he authored some months back about adult victims. Many thanks to you Paul for quietly standing in the background and doing what you can. The article will be posted March 23 (next week) on the VIRTUS homepage. http://www.virtus.org/virtus/ Please read the article and post send some feedback.
Last Edited By: rice55 03/20/09 21:45:03.
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LiberteBelle |
#253 | |||
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I hope when an effort is organized on behalf of victims of foreign-born priests, to assure that INS is doing background checks before allowing any imported
priest to work here in the U.S., that you will feel up to backing that legal push. Individual dioceses are NEVER going to reform their practices until Federal
and State government agencies and laws compell them to clean up their act. I am only surprised no attorney has thought of taking the Catholic Church's
human rights violations (including human trafficking) to the World Court, at the Hague. I understand Jeff Anderson is suing the Vatican on behalf of one
American male victim of an Irish priest and am only surprised this isn't a class action suit on behalf of both male and female victims.
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rice55 |
#254 | |||
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Libertre, I am feeling a bit funny here when I say, what exactly will the INS do, ask them if they ever perped anyone? Check yes on no, one box please.
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rice55 |
Bounty for my Perp | #255 | ||
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BOUNTY. You tell me where my perp is and prove it, and I will pay you $5,000.00. To the priests in his order from India, think about it. All this money is like
a bazzilion dollars to you. It can buy you a new bell for the parish church. It can feed people. It can build a school.
Remember, "It's just business." 906-362-2602
Last Edited By: rice55 03/22/09 21:02:15.
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LiberteBelle |
#256 | |||
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Hi Kelly,
Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) has ultimate dominion over who is legally admitted to this country and who is not. Unfortunately, and your case is a glaring case-in-point, the INS has allowed the Church to import priests on working visas, devoid of the same sort of rigorous scrutiny that would usually be applied elsewhere. For example: can you imagine for one moment, a Muslim or Islamic cleric being imported to the U.S. without having to undergo rigorous background checks, after 9/11?1 Heck, singer Boy George can no longer work in the U.S. because he's a known drug-abuser, much less sexual predator. So, what I'm saying here is we need to compel INS to become less liberal with allowing dioceses and orders to vouch for importation of priests. Essentially, in importing the priests the dioceses and orders accept liability for their conduct while here. But the word of a bishop or provincial is obviously not good enough, of itself, to assure that the imported priests are actually 'safe' providers of ministerial services. In my previous message I made reference to a case taken on by Jeff Anderson involving importation of a priest that they came to discover, had a long, long history of predating on boys. Yet he was assigned to work with kids while in Oregon! I know of a priest from India who tortured his female victim, a parishioner, with lit cigarettes. The list goes on... All I'm saying is, there is not a one of these priests who would knowingly be accepted into the US on working visas under any other circumstances. I worked for a Fortune 500 Company that deported an employee from Pakistan within 24-hours of his having been accused of 'exposing' himself to a female janitor, in the men's bathroom. That was a simple cultural misunderstanding as the guy didn't know it wasn't okay to still use the facilities while a female janitor was cleaning them. Nevertheless, I know for a fact that lay companies take a much more serious approach to on-the-job sexual harrassment of any kind than does the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It is possible to petition for legal reform in asking that INS tighten its procedures, by disallowing for importation of priests, based solely on the host Church's say-so and avowed willingness to accept liability for them. It is my hope that you and other victim-survivors of foreign born priests will support efforts to compell INS to tighten laws on importation of clerics. We need assurances that the men being imported aren't sexual predators and since the Church has proven itself unwilling to voluntarily ensure parishioner safety, the INS has the power to impose constraints on importation of priests, by mandating background checks. Changing immigration policy wouldn't help your situation. But it would give you the satisfaction of knowing you acted to help protect others from similar pain and suffering.
Last Edited By: LiberteBelle 03/23/09 12:52:35.
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rice55 |
#257 | |||
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A Mighty Force
Finding Strength United as God's Children By Paul J. Ashton, Psy.D., D. Min. Consultant to the VIRTUSĀ® Programs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -2 Thessalonians 3:5 The grooming process that perpetrators use to get close to victims and then eventually to molest them is confusing. It is supposed to be. In that way, a perpetrator can get close to possible victims without them knowing the true motivations behind the actions. Molesters use power over victims to draw them into a world of deception and lies. It is a world filled with doubt, fear, and anguish, and a place where victims often feel trapped, dirty, ashamed, and alone. Since the Protecting God's ChildrenĀ® program became available, we have spent much time educating people about how to prevent child sexual abuse. Simultaneously, we tried to educate people that God's children refers to everyone. Everyone means children and adults and all those in between. The program is intended to protect children from sexual abuse by educating adults to know how perpetrators insinuate themselves into the lives of children to molest them. The program also educates caring adults about the appropriate ways in which to conduct themselves around children to gain protection from false allegations. Many approach the program and ask about adults who are also "vulnerable." Our research has found that several states, as well as countries, have vulnerable adults legislation that often provide specific definitions about individuals who are considered to be vulnerable adults. As much as the Protecting God's Children program emphasizes that we are all God's children, we had to face the various nuances that arise in our society which place some adults in the necessary category of warranted protection. Many adults living in group homes, nursing homes, etc., fall into this category. Labels, definitions, and words sometimes inadvertently lead us into exclusion, however. While the articles written about vulnerable adults were clear in their description and approach, it must never be misunderstood that anyone would be excluded from the possibility of being victimized by a perpetrator and falling prey to their keen and cunning grooming skills. All persons are susceptible to abuse, to predation, and manipulation through the grooming process-and all must be aware that no matter who the perpetrator is, what they say, or what they do, the victim is never responsible for the abuse that happens to them. All too often, we learn of adults being abused by those who are in a role of ministerial authority over them. They misuse their power and authority to abuse adults and children in their care and under their counsel. Victims are victims, no matter the age. The entire topic of child sexual abuse is distasteful and has been avoided for so long that approaching it even now is problematic for many people. This is what perpetrators rely upon-avoidance and ignorance. The Protecting God's Children program was developed to protect children from being sexually abused. It has also grown and become the catalyst to make sure other abuses are brought to light. Most especially, it has caused us to take pause and educate ourselves about the dangers that we all face as possible victims to anyone who might desire to harm us. Our gained knowledge truly is power and we must continue to unite in protecting all individuals from possible harm in our churches and communities. United in this approach, we can face our communities without fear and watch lovingly, care appropriately, and act justly in all situations where we meet our brothers and sisters. We should never use language to separate us. Rather, in times of crisis, we must unite, bond, and derive strength from our connection as the Body of Christ. When one member hurts, we all hurt. When one is healed, we all heal. We draw upon each other's strengths and vulnerabilities, and we present ourselves as a united and mighty force to all who might wish to see otherwise. Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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LiberteBelle |
#258 | |||
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Glad to see VIRTUS has opened up, a bit, to a change of perspective as they once posted fictional stories on their website, involving adult abuse cases, that
in all cases made the priest appear to be the well-meaning, but naive, victim of the calculating and seductive person he was counseling. However, there is not
yet anywhere near as much "legislation" in place to protect adults as this article seems to imply and this writer's concession to existence of
adult victims was still heavily qualified.
More disturbing to me is the fact that so many trained psychologists, who work for the Church, buy into the Church's perspective on these matters, even though they are trained to know that "grooming" and boundary violations are as much a part of a predatory cleric's M.O. as is the case with lay psychologists. The counselor or authority figure in the situation is always most liable for their conduct. The client is never supposed to be liable for the counselor's misconduct. Yet, when these same psychologists go to work for the Church, it's as if they suspend a lot of their educationally instilled awareness of what is truly ethical behavior and what is not. Indeed I know of a psychiatric nurse who quit working for a treatment facility for predatory priests, because she was morally opposed to so much of how the place operated outside legal restrictions for dealing with sex offenders. That aside: I am also fed up with the fact that the overwhelming majority of the cases involving abuse of adults by priests, that have actually been awarded substantive settlements, have involved male victims. This disproportionately heavy emphasis on addressing the needs of male victims -- child, teen or adult -- in preference to addressing the even larger problem of priests abuse of women, affords the Church the ability to tell itself that in dealing with the tip of the iceberg aspect of this issue, they are making progress in erradicating CSA. Even former Benedictine monk, psychologist and clergy abuse expert, A.W. Richard Sipe, conceded that there are more female victims of priests, than male. So why are the male victims getting the lion's share of the attention and settlements? Because with female victims the priests are able to comfort themselves by saying, "Well, at least I'm not a pedophile or homosexual." Ashton appears to be attempting to cause others to see the bigger picture, with respect to clergy abuse. But the Church has been acting like a dysfunctional, misogynistic and incestuous family for centuries. Until very recently, no one but the outcast victims of clergy sexual abuse had the ability or guts to see all that for what it really is, apart from the holy veneer. In short: Ashton has his work cut out for him. He is not going to find a lot of agreement with his perspective from his peers within the Church. Or God help him! |
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rice55 |
#259 | |||
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Maybe we all wanted to be blind to what we needed to believe.
Marquette Diocese Clergy Watch http://www.marquettedioceseclergywatch.org/ Contact:906-362-2602 U.P.MDCW Survivor Support Group meetings now active. All are welcome. MDCW P.O. Box 45 Marquette, MI 49855 |
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LiberteBelle |
#260 | |||
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Yes, and what we remained blind to, till too late, did hurt us, badly ... More disturbing is the fact that so many millions of people are still clinging to
that illusion, perpetrated by (false) holy men, even though it's been proven to have about as much veracity as OZ The Great and Powerful. Why is it so many
people would rather blindly follow someone else, than think for themselves? Mind you: I was an iconoclast and feminist before I even knew what the words
meant. At age 10, I was challenging the entire notion that to be a good woman I would have to marry a guy for life and have countless children ... I had the
audacity to tell my parents and the bishop, that I wanted to go to university, first, before even thinking about marriage or becoming a mother ... Remarkably,
I still believe in (a) God (of my understanding), but only despite of, rather than because of priests or so-called alter cristi.
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